Campaign Extra!: Fun with Dick and John -- blogging it live

Election 2004

Fun with Dick and John -- blogging it live

8:53 p.m. So CNN has this "Countdown to Debate" clock -- how geeky is that? If you're obsessing on the minutes leading up to a vice presidential debate, maybe you need a "Countdown to Getting a Life" clock. Especially when the hated Yankees are playing on Fox. Do they have commercials on this thing?

UPDATE: 8:59 p.m. Two red ties. They're gonna play it safe!

UPDATE: 9:00 p.m. LOL -- Tucker Carlson just said listening to Cheney is like "taking a sedative." Or was it suppository?

UPDATE: 9:03 p.m. Gwen Ifill rocks -- asking tough questions on Jerry Bremer and Rumsfeld no-Iraq-al Qaeda links! Uh oh -- the "established relationship with al-Qaeda" and Saddam Hussein is back! When is Cheney ever going to learn?

UPDATE: 9:05 p.m. "Mr. Vice President, you are still not being straight with the American people." The first words out of Edwards' mouth!

UPDATE: 9:07 p.m. Edwards is being very direct, simple -- really taking it to Cheney. How long before Cheney starts saying that "Vice President is a tough job."?

UPDATE: 9:13 p.m. We're really surprised by Cheney's tone and demeanor. We thought that -- with a lot of coaching -- that he would return to the avuncular style of the 2000 debate with Joe Lieberman. We were wrong. He's snarly and a little scary looking, and still putting it out there that Kerry's a wuss who'll get us all killed.

UPDATE: 9:16 p.m. Now Cheney's hailing our support of the death squads in El Salvador as a shining moment in democracy. We're waiting for him to praise the Japanese interment camps.

UPDATE: 9:20 p.m. OK, are we biased, or is Edwards cleaning Cheney's clock? His courtroom background seems to be really helping -- even seated in a chair. He's sticking to a common theme -- that Bush and Cheney can't be trusted to tell the truth -- and is working all those answers around it.

UPDATE: 9:23 p.m. Cheney's talking point: "Your rhetoric would be a lot more credible if you had the record to back it up."

UPDATE 9:26 p.m. Cheney is making a bizarre charge here: that Kerry and Edwards couldn't stand up to the pressure of Howard Dean! Actually, as we remember it, Howard Dean couldn't stand up to the pressure of Howard Dean. Edwards lands a left hook: "A long resume does not equal good judgment."

UPDATE: 9:31 p.m. Cross talk! As Ian Hunter once said: "Cleveland rocks!"

UPDATE: 9:36 p.m. I'm sorry -- Dick Cheney is full of it. Once again, he mentions the terrorist camp that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi ran in Iraq -- that camp was in the northern section of Iraq that was under control of the Kurds, not Saddam. The strong link between Zarqawi and Saddam just doesn't exist.

UPDATE: 9:41 p.m. Unbelievable -- instead of answering allegations about Halliburton, Cheney directs listeners to a Web site (run here in Philly by U. of Pennsylvania). How many viewers will go there. Even worse -- and I need to double ckeck this -- I beleive Cheney called it "factcheck.com." That's wrong. It's factcheck.org!

UPDATE: 9:47 p.m. Politically, Cheney had his best line when he said that after presiding over the Senate that tonight's the first time he met Edwards. But Edwards comes back with some serious truth-telling on Cheney's record in Congress -- voting against Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela!

UPDATE: 9:57 p.m. Man, Cheney just flashed a snarl that scared the bejeezus out of me. That said. it seems like it's more of a draw on domestic issues. Cheney almost sounded reasonable talking about small businesses and tax cuts. Almost.

UPDATE: 10:01 p.m. Good Edwards line: "We just don't value wealth in America -- we value work." Maybe went a little overboard on Cheney's gay daughter, though. He was trying to make a subtle point -- many Americans don't get subtlety when it comes to homosexuality.

UPDATE: 10:05 p.m. Asking John Edwards a question about frivilous lawsuits is like throwing a hanging curve to Barry Bonds. Who can say anything bad about his efforts on behalf of the 5-year-old girl?

UPDATE: 10:09 p.m. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...Can't we go back and talk about Halliburton some more?

UPDATE: 10:14 p.m. Twins 2, Yankees 0 (6th inning)! Minnesota, Edwards...everybody hits! Whaaa hoooo!

UPDATE: 10:17 p.m. Edwards: "I would find terrorists where they are, and stop them, and kill them." Did Edwards just volunteer to go personally to the Pakistan-Afghanistan border region?

UPDATE: 10:19 p.m. Bush picked Cheney? We thought Cheney picked himself.

UPDATE: 10:21 p.m. Cheney's talking about all the similarities in his upbringing with Edwards. Really? You mean Edwards was busted twice for drunk driving and got five draft deferments?

UPDATE: 10:27 p.m. This is just like watching an Eagles game -- a slowly building but decisive rout. And Edwards is just running out the clock now. It is a little stunning, though, how little they've talked about domestic issues -- including nothing on energy policy, which will likely prove the defining problem of the 21st Century.

UPDATE: 10:29 p.m. Cheney's taking credit for Zell Miller -- not sure I'd brag about that.

UPDATE: 10:35 p.m. We're into stoppage time (that's for all you soccer fans) now. I'm really interested to see how the media calls it. In terms of demeanor, I thought Edwards did well but Cheney was also a heck of a lot more poised than his so-called boss. Will reporters look deeper at some of Cheney's misleadiing statements on Iraq.

UPDATE: 10:43 p.m. OK, the "draw" talk is beginning on TV, although Carlos Watson on CNN noted that Edwards "landed some blows" on terrorism that might appeal to swing voters. Wolf Blitzer is a disgrace -- he's obsessing on Edwards' "inexperience" here.

UPDATE: 10:52 p.m. Candy Crowley makes a good point -- that since there is some question about whether Edwards is ready to be president, even a "draw" is a sort of a win for Edwards.

UPDATE: 10:55 p.m. CNN focus group -- Cheney got his best spike when he talked about gay marriage -- the one issue he disagrees with Bush about! (Edwards' biggest spike came when he attacked "outsourcing.")

UPDATE: 11:00 p.m. THE PUNDITOCRACY HAS SPOKEN! It's a draw, and a draw is a "win" for Edwards. We think Edwards wins when you take into account Cheney's credibility gap on Iraq, but that's just us. When Larry King comes on, it's time for us to log off. Thank you very much, Philly! You've been a great audience! See you tomorrow...Good night!!!

Posted on October 5, 2004 08:33 PM

Comments

Edwards' tie is burgundy - a subtle difference, admittedly.

Posted by: Ruth at October 5, 2004 08:41 PM

OK, DICK, even if the precentage is wrong they're still DEAD. I guess we should feel better that the parents of Iraq lost as many young people as we did. I will definaltely sleep better tonight.

Posted by: Mollye at October 5, 2004 09:00 PM

I'm biased. Cheney is hammering Edwards. The Democrats sent a boy to do a man's job.

Posted by: Ted at October 5, 2004 09:14 PM

Cheney is pro-UN and international cooperation to impose sanctions, but anti-UN and anti-international cooperation when it comes to invasion and war?

And OOOH, "That's all you got" - love Gwen Ifil!

Posted by: Ruth at October 5, 2004 09:17 PM

Gwen is a tough cookie. She shows no favorites. I vote for her for all the debates.

Posted by: Ted at October 5, 2004 09:21 PM

I had to turn it off. Cheney makes me ill and no, I'm not happy with how Edwards is doing.

Cheney is talking to him like he's a little kid getting dressed down by his Dad.

Answers we need to hear from Edwards -

John Kerry voted to SUPPORT this administration because he believed YOU (like everybody else did) when you said Saddam Hussein had WMDs AND YOU KNEW WHERE THEY WERE. Once Kerry found out that was NOT TRUE, he (like so many of us) realized this was a BS war fought for BS reasons and now over 1,000 American soldiers are dead.

John Kerry did NOT VOTE FOR A WAR BECAUSE A VOTE WAS NEVER CALLED FOR A WAR.

John Kerry is NOT denigrating the troops OR our allies in Iraq by saying "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time". He's pointing out that YOU GUYS SCREWED UP and if anybody should be held accountable for all the dead allies and Iraquis, it should be YOU.

He should be making a much stronger push about Halliburton.

More than anything, he should say something - anything - to smack that condescending snake oil salesman tone out of Cheney's voice. Ptui!

Sorry if I'm yelling. I'm getting all emotional over here.

Posted by: linndc at October 5, 2004 09:31 PM

I agree it's generally a draw overall so far. Cheney scares me on many levels but he's not majorly screwing up, and Edwards is doing a competent but not stellar job. This gay marriage question is another good example of my new best girlfriend Gwen doing a good job asking the tough question, and I think Cheney's stock answer doesn't do the administration any favors, but Edwards isn't doing such a great job answering either.

Posted by: Ruth at October 5, 2004 09:37 PM

Did Cheney just mention Zell Miller's convention speech as an example of bipartisanship?? He's psychotic!

Posted by: Ruth at October 5, 2004 10:08 PM

Cheney came across as consistently surly and dismissive, sometimes even disrespectful toward Gwen Ifill and the whole format. But Edwards had the disadvantage of someone used to playing to a room, who was now playing to a close-up camera - like a theater actor who gets his first movie role. He overplayed mock surprise and other moments that could have been more effective if they hadn't been so hammy.

Plus he broke the rule about not mentioning Kerry's name - a little unfair, of course, since as Will mentioned, Cheney could care less if some puppet named George Bush exists or not, so he could talk all night without mentioning his running mate.

But in the end I gotta score it for Edwards simply because above and beyond anything else, unlike Cheney, he's not evil personified.

Posted by: Chuckamuck at October 5, 2004 10:57 PM

Cheney lied and lied so urbanely, he should bottle whatever he's got going and sell it to insomniacs for instant sleepiness. Edwards had the facts, told the truth, exposed the lies.
Win for Edwards.

Posted by: Michael Burton at October 5, 2004 11:20 PM

Whats the big deal with Halliburton? Cheney helped bring the bad guys to justice there--he helped the government out. Besides he became CEO AFTER they started finding problems with Iran. Go check your dates. Also everybody knows that Saddam shipped his WMD's out of the country the minute UN inspectors hit the ground and to say that there is no connection to terrorists there is insane.

Posted by: Mec at October 6, 2004 09:13 AM

I would love to see the Democrats run ads about HAL 24/7. The only ones that care about HAL are Bush/Cheney haters. I love it every time they bring it up. It's so non sequitur.

Since the general opinion going was that Edwards would win handily and he didn't, I put this as a win in the Cheney column.

Posted by: Ted at October 6, 2004 09:30 AM

I was delighted to see NBC ask a couple of bloggers to add their on-air comments to the post-debate coverage. However, although ornamental, I did not think that Wonkette held up her side of the comments very well.

Also, like Chuckamuck, I felt that Edwards had too much tendency to play to the audience instead of either Gwen (great job) or the camera. Maybe if I had watched on a network instead of C-SPAN, however, I would have seen more direct addresses to the cameras.

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