A similar thing happened at a GOP rally in Marquette, Mich. this summer. People wearing Kerry buttons --- with tickets for the event --- were turned away from the rally.
Isn't this how Hitler got started? Supression of opposition isn't the American Way ....

Does a TRUE American want Separation of Church and State? YES

Does a TRUE American defend and fight for our Constitution? YES

GWB does not want separation of Church and State.

GWB does not want Our Constitution he wants to tear it apart

GWB does not believe in the Constitution or our Founding Fathers.
George W. Bush is not a True American

It's amazing how thinking people can listen to Bush and enjoy what he shouts about.

It's snake oil, pure and simply. His slides of him seeking for WMD that he showed at a formal dinner were a terrible blotch on our national psyches. What in the world did he think we'd laugh at? It was pathetic and if I had anyone fighting in Iraq I would be furious. NOT FUNNY!

Believing that Democrats are poised to engage in massive vote fraud in key battleground states, the Republican Party is planning to deploy thousands of monitors to challenge questionable voters. In a Page One story in the New York Times Saturday, the paper said the Republican Party in Ohio alone has identified about 35,000 new voters who they believe to be fraudulent or questionable. The Republicans claimed that 35,000 new voters were mailed notices confirming their registrations and in every case the U.S. Postal Service returned the notice as "undeliverable."

"Voter Fraud Anyone?"

In the Democratic bastion of Cuyahoga County (Cleveland) alone, Republicans discovered more than 14,000 questionable registrations.

To combat the possibility of massive vote fraud the Republicans plan to deploy thousands of operatives to challenge questionable new voters on Election Day.

The Times quoted Ohio officials as saying the Republican effort is one of the largest they have ever seen.

Democrat 527 groups have reportedly been spending $150 million to $300 million this year on voter registration and turn-out efforts.

Apparently those monies have helped create a wave of fraudulent registration programs.

For example, in Ohio election officials are reviewing the voter registration of Jive Turkey Sr., who was among 1,284 suspicious applications that Cuyahoga County, Ohio, election officials will turn over to prosecutors to investigate for potential fraud.

Last week, officials in Defiance County, Ohio, questioned the voter registration applications of Dick Tracy, Mary Poppins and Michael Jordan.

The police said the man who created these registrations claimed he was paid in crack cocaine for his registration efforts by a representative of the NAACP.

It's amazing that the person who put this screed up is so ignorant of what Orwell was saying in "Animal Farm" and "1984." Orwell was a devout Leftist, who joined the Marxist "POUM" faction in the Spanish Civil War. He fought on the front lines for the Left during that war, and then suddenly the mainstream Communists ordered all the POUM to be purged. They were mostly killed and Orwell himself barely escaped with his life to the South of France. This story is told in his earlier work "Homage to Catalonia." If one reads "Homage" and then "1984," it is plain that Orwell was talking about how opressive the Left is. How the Left lies and supresses free speech. And nothing has changed from Orwell's youth to our own day. The ignorant author has not mentioned the multiple acts of vandalism and violence by Democrats against Republican campaign offices, the blood-sucking lawyers of John Kerry chilling the free speech of the Sinclair network, or the lies of the Liberal media, namely Dan Rather and his obviously false documents. No way, "1984" was about the Left when it was written, and it is about the Left today.

In response to Mr Esse's ignorant post-

A real American opposes Seperation of Church and State, as it is nowhere to be found in our Constitution. It was a concept invented by Liberal activist judges appointed by FDR in 1947.

"Congress shall make no law RESPECTING an establishment of religion." What that means, IN PLAIN ENGLISH, is that the Federal government cant have anything to do, for or AGAINST an established religion at the state or local level. Thus, by extention, the Activist Federal courts had no right to even rule upon all the ACLU's frivolous lawsuits over the years, much less give them a favorable ruling. The Left can write 10,000 pages of verbal flatulence about why there is Seperation of Church and State in the first amendment, but the fact remains, in plain English, it's not there.

Seperation of Church and State is from the Soviet Constitution, the document Liberals are more loyal to than the US Constitution.

If you are silencing people in the name of the First Amendment, you are no American.

In response to Paul- Hitler was a Leftist. The Nazi Party is the "Nation SOCIALIST German Workers Party" emphasis on socialism. And, as I pointed out, John Kerry is the one silencing the opposition. If you listen to many of Hitler's speeches, you hear him talking about how "national socialists must eradicate the Jew Capitalists." The Nazi war against the Jews was actually typical Left-Wing class warfare, which is the stuff of the Kerry campaign.

Matt Dedinas is certainly capable of farting up a lot of written flatulence!

and D Baldwin ("dummy"? "dingbat"? d**khead"?) is incapable opf refuting a single thing said, nor apparently of even coming with an original insult. All in all a typical room-temperature IQ individual that the Democratic Party registers in droves.

Matt- You should know, what we think as left isn't thought the same across the world. Here in Denmark, the left is the conservative group.

The left doesn't stop the first amendment, that would be Bush and his people, didn't you read the article?

Armywife- this is not an "article" per se, this is one man's opinion, and a not very well informed one at that.

And if security is tight at Bush rallies- well that is because of the Democrat attacks on Republican offices and gatherings. That is the point I was bringing up. In Tennessee, a Bush-Cheney campaign office had a gun fired through it's window. In Florida, a Democrat rent-a-mob attacked another Bush-Cheney office. In Minnesota, union thugs who support Kerry attacked yet another office. Mr Bunch is totally wrong. It is not Bush who is supressing free speech. Michael Moore wrote his pack of lies against Bush and has not been molested in any way by the Administration. When the Swiftboat vets said what they had to say- two hundred honorably discharged vets, all of them with more service in Vietnam than Kerry, Kerry threatened them and harrassed them and had people try to dig up dirt on them personally. When Sinclair Broadcasting wanted to give some POWs who had suffered for the lying testimony Kerry gave during the Vietnam Era some time to say what they had to say about how Kerry betrayed this country- Kerry's representative said menacingly- "they better hope we don't win." They too have been harrassed and threatened with frivolous lawsuits.

My point is- it is the Democrats, and them alone, who are silencing people. They have turned this election violent in some places.

What's that; Matt Deadhead?

We Liberals are not opposed to Religion. We understand that people with a filthy mouth, among other moral shortcomings, need external controls placed on their lives.

What we object to is a return to the Dark Ages of ignorance.

We are headed for Civil War in this country, and we have been for a very long time. It is people like you and your Messiah, George Bush, who have finally sent us careening toward that cliff. So, when all Hell breaks loose, you will mostly have yourselves to blame!

Karl Rove and company are prepared to drag us all into the abyss and tear the nation apart. But, at least when it is all over, and it will be someday, you Freepers will have been disavowed of many myths; The biggest one being, Libruls are weak and won't fight. The other silly one is that Libruls don't own guns and can't shoot, but that is neither here or there, eh?

In North Korea (Republican America), if you aren't a "loyal party member" (in the Republican Party and sign a loyalty oath), you can't see the dictator. If you try, you aren't "on the list" and removed (usually with force). The North Koreans (rest of America) see on their TV (similar to Fox and Sinclair propaganda) rallies with the North Korean faithful (Republican true believers) praising their dictator. It's time we rename W to Kim Jong Bush.

Someone wrote: "the Democrat attacks on Republican offices and gatherings"

Given the Republican record for dirty tricks, I am ever skeptical. Could the Repugs be attacking the Repubs?

Blue Iris, converted by Kenneth Starr into a yellow dog Democrat

What hogwash this bit about Repugnicans keeping out democrats because they are so violent and disruptive. We can all see (by the performance in the debates) that the Bush/Rove strategy is to surround Bush in a bubble of acceptance, to maintain the illusion of his "popularity. Kerry does not screen those who wish to attend his rallies, and there are certainly instances where Repugnican supporters have sought to disrupt his rallies. He is unafraid to have people disagree with him. Although I am not really a Kerry supporter, I still can see a difference between the two presidential contenders. The bush pResidency has been one of secrecy, deception, and fear-driven politics. THEY CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH. If they truly feared violent acts then why remove peaceful women who are simply wearing a shirt that expresses an anti-bush sentiment? They want bush and the american people to believe bush has total support by refusing to allow any dissenting voice or opinion. Bush is a coward...he got his ass handed to him in the debates, and without a teleprompter or memorized answers, he is shown for the empty-headed bumbler many of us know him to be. Suppression of an alternate point of view is un-American and cowardly. Bush CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH.

"And then it get even creepier."

Nice Grammer.

It is extremely obvious that the republicans plan to disrupt voting lines on election day. They have tipped their hands by claiming that some registrations are suspicious. The ploy is to object, thus hold up the voting lines in hopes that democrat voters will tire of waiting and go home without voting.

Knowing this, democrats should vote early that day.

Separation of church and state was invented by liberal judges? Wow. It existed as a concept before the US existed but it was certainly advocated by liberals like Jefferson and Adams.

I do like the screaming exclamation of what it means in plain English since it is diametrically opposed to what other conservatives scream that it means in plain English.

Very Orwellian posts by this fellow.

"We are headed for Civil War in this country, and we have been for a very long time. It is people like you and your Messiah, George Bush, who have finally sent us careening toward that cliff. So, when all Hell breaks loose, you will mostly have yourselves to blame!"

"Karl Rove and company are prepared to drag us all into the abyss and tear the nation apart. But, at least when it is all over, and it will be someday, you Freepers will have been disavowed of many myths; The biggest one being, Libruls are weak and won't fight. The other silly one is that Libruls don't own guns and can't shoot, but that is neither here or there, eh?"

TWF's reply to matt deadhead is completely on the mark, and the repugnant distractions and dirty tricks only push "freedom-loving" Americans that much closer to civil war. The fascist bush/cheney regime will never last another term if they do indeed steal yet another election.

I have to agree that the shooting of a Rethuglian campaign office was probably a distraction ploy...to hide the fact that the Ohio Democratic Campaign office was burglarized and specific computers were stolen...( containing specific and detailed Kerry campaign tactics ).

I am a Canadian living in the US ( with three American citizen children - one in the military ). I cannot vote but I have a lot at stake and WILL speak my mind.

I, as well as most of the world is absolutely terrified of Bushco and it's minions. Hitler could not have risen to power without the Brownshirts, ( see Matt below ), who speak in generalities and diatribes; usually accusing the Democrats of tactics which they themselves are using....Quickest way to distract the opposition is to accuse them of treason, voter fraud, agressive tactics, etc...all of which the Rethuglicans are using...

" By your deeds shall you be judged. "

Your rhetoric and false accusations do not hide the truth...That which you accuse, is that of which you are complicit....

You have invaded a sovereign nation based upon lies and deceit, as you slaughter thousands of innocent Iraqi's...Each of which shall demand retribution...We have just entered the age of Terror....It will continue for generations to come....

If the US does not change its' administration and tactics; and quickly; we will all be in trouble.

Please wake up America.
Vote Kerry.

Our founding fathers wanted to SPARE their new country the THOUSANDS OF YEARS of VIOLENT CONTRONTATION that religion had caused on the European continent. They knew GOD was part of all of their lives, that's why its on our money and basically omnipresent in US culture. But they were prescient enough to realize PUBLIC POLICY BASED ON RELIGION would inevitably lead to internal division and a FOREIGN POLICY AT ODDS WITH OTHER RELIGIOUS NATION STATES. God help us all if Bush steals it again.

Matt,

FDR 1947? FDR died in 1945. One helluva feat to appoint leftist judges from the grave.

From Madison (you know the guy who wrote the Constitution):

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history." (1810 - Monopolies Essay)

So there you have it right from Madison himself. It appears that you are the ignorant one.

If you want to join church to state, then which religion wins? Do you want a theocratic, one party state?

I'm a pround AMERICAN liberal. I believe in free speech, even for people like you. Sadly, I fear you and those of your ilk would be the first to jail those who don't agree with you. I support the free speech of INDIVIDUALS. Sinclair is a corporation manipulating PUBLIC airwaves to launch an all out assault on someone they don't like.

If you believe Nazi's are leftist, then please explain why American Nazis align themselves so closely to conservative politics? Why do right-wing white supremist like the KKK associate with Neo-Nazis?

Given the polarization of the left and right in this country, I do not doubt your tales of Democratic attacks on Bush-Cheney offices. But that does not explain why people have to sign loyalty oaths (which by the way are Nazi and Soviet tactics) to attend Bush rallies, while Kerry rallies are open to anyone, including Bush supporters. I too have stories of right-wing attacks on Kerry offices and supporters.

You use the word "liberal" as an epithet, as a way to scare ignorant people. It is people like you that will tear down this country to impose your religion and beliefs on others. You are a phony patriot, who hides behind the flag, and feels oh-so smug in your imagined righteousness.

As this polarization of left and right becomes more volatile, this is one liberal who is thankful that the architects of our Constitution gave us the Second Amendment and equally glad that the assault rifle ban is no longer in effect, as I fear we may have to fight people like you in the streets within the next decade to take back our country and restore true liberty and freedom for ALL.

Believe me Matt there are many more like me and if you and your ilk continue to demonize us, block our voices, call us "unpatriotic" or "traitors", or worse begin to jail us, then we will have no choice but to take to the streets.

Civil war will be the only to end this polarization. Are you ready for it Matt?

Matt D
I am, or at at least was an undecided voter until I read your screed. Are you really that scared of other peoples views? It seems really sad that you let fear rule your life. The Republican party is no longer the party of Reagan, it is just the party of fear. As a life long Republican it saddens me to see what has happened to the party.

Scariest of all is this...if Iran gets its nuke factory online, a Bush win will give the Israelis carte-blanche for a pre-emptive strike, then Mr. Bush and his 'god botherers' will have their precious armageddon. I'm not taking religious sides in this issue...I'm sick of both equally. I think the rest of the world should build a wall around the whole 'Midden' East and concentrate on stopping the arms flow to EVERY side...(I call it the 'midden' east because at the rate they're going, it'll be up to future archaelogists to sift through the radioactive garbage to figure out what went wrong!)

Karl,
the Republican party is in need of some repairs. for the Iago, if you will, of the Republicans is Karl Rove.

Let this election be a referendum on Karl Rove, if the Repubs lose, they have only Rove to blame for it.

Unwillingness to change or comprimise, brutal reprisal against differeng opinions within the ranks, smear and lie tactics. Are these things Republican?

If not, do not support Karl Rove and his candidate, George W. bush.

We need a fresh start, and a new vision.

Bush cannot provide this.

Hey, Matt Dedinas! You're wrong on a great many levels, too many for me to want to address here myself, but I think you know where you're wrong in some cases - Orwell, for instance, was of course talking about authoritarian Communism in "Animal Farm" but you couldn't seriously have read several of his books and walked away with the genuine impression that his one and only sworn enemy was somehow the "Left" or that he had much of anything in common with your brand of "conservatism" - unless of course you're one of the mindless zealots clinging to dogma that he so openly disdains, which is a distinct possibility. But I'll just go ahead and refute your religion argument, since its in such glaring contradiction to known history and basic facts.

I didn't know that Thomas Jefferson was a liberal judge appointed by FDR in '47! And an adherent of the "Soviet constitution" no less!? Boy, the "liberal" media sure has screwed up our view of American history! Here are a few quotes from a founding father in case you're interested in what he actually had to say on the matter instead of just relying on the lies and distortions of your ridiculous right-wing dogma.

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

Wow, Jefferson sure does seem to be explicitly clear on the subject - 'thus building a WALL OF SEPARATION BETWEEN CHURCH AND STATE'. Boy, I can see how you'd get the meaning of the constitution so easily confused... If you relied only on a semantical argument regarding the definition of "respecting" and totally ignored the ample body of writing and commentary by statesmen like Jefferson that make the intent behind their words, actions, and ideas abundantly clear.

Nobody is being "silenced" in America because our Gov't doesn't endorse or establish a state religion, in fact it's quite ORWELLIAN of you to imply that, because the obvious result of the Gov't (on any level) establishing an official religion would be to silence all those who aren't followers of that belief system, and that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of how it could be unconstitutional, on everything from equal protection under the law to the enumeration of rights etcetera.

If you want to live in a theocracy, move to Iran.
Here are some more Jefferson quotes in case you are still confused.

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

"They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

-------
Brainwashed Idiot said:

"A real American opposes Seperation of Church and State, as it is nowhere to be found in our Constitution. It was a concept invented by Liberal activist judges appointed by FDR in 1947.

"Congress shall make no law RESPECTING an establishment of religion." What that means, IN PLAIN ENGLISH, is that the Federal government cant have anything to do, for or AGAINST an established religion at the state or local level. Thus, by extention, the Activist Federal courts had no right to even rule upon all the ACLU's frivolous lawsuits over the years, much less give them a favorable ruling. The Left can write 10,000 pages of verbal flatulence about why there is Seperation of Church and State in the first amendment, but the fact remains, in plain English, it's not there.

Seperation of Church and State is from the Soviet Constitution, the document Liberals are more loyal to than the US Constitution.

If you are silencing people in the name of the First Amendment, you are no American."
------

Oh... One more thing. FDR died in 1945.

Maybe that's how he met Thomas Jefferson, in the afterlife, and they both returned from the grave in 1947 so that FDR could appoint him as a judge.

Sounds absurd, I admit, but really no more absurd than any of the lies, distortions, and fantasies found in your post, which reflects your broader ideology, one that has the coherency of a paranoid-schizophrenic's ramblings and the intellectual honesty of an infomercial for a miracle weight-loss cream.

Moron.

matt, you watch fox don't you!? that is why you are so misinformed. surveys show that fox watchers are very misinformed and have twisted ideas about the facts. they are also less educated and narrow-minded. get a better view of life, watch all news programs and all sides of issues. see both sides and then look at bush's track record including his past record in business, school and politics. would you want to work for bush? maria

This treaty was published throughout the young United States prior to being ratified. There was no public outcry. The citizens of the original America accepted and approved of the statement that they were NOT a christian nation.

Treaty of Peace and Friendship, signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796 (3 Ramada I, A. H. 1211), and at Algiers January 3, 1797 (4 Rajab, A. H. 1211). Original in Arabic. Submitted to the Senate May 29, 1797. (Message of May 26, 1797.) Resolution of advice and consent June 7, 1797. Ratified by the United States June 10, 1797.

ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

For an American President to bar anyone from his speeches is the epitomy of anti Americanism.

This country was founded on freedom. Freedom is what the Bushies are trying to destroy when they do this sort of thing.

I worked security in Ohio for both candidates this year. Instructions from the Bush camp were as follows. No Democrats, no people wearing pro Democratic t shirts. No anti bush signs or slogans. They had a list of thousands of Democrats that may try to infiltrate. Now the Kerry camp were far less restrictive. They banned people who were drunk, or people who were loud and obnoxious. Thats it.

What the GOP has done to this country is mind boggling. Thats just plain goes against everything this country stands for.
By the way Im voting for Badnarik so save the "bias spew." Im completely against both major candidates but the truth is the truth.

It reminds me of the "Seinfeld" creation known as the "Soup Nazi", who evicted anyone from his restaurant for not being sufficiently sycophantic.

"What...a Kerry button?! No soup for YOU!"

These kinds of actions tell you how insecure the bush campaign is feeling. One can only imagine what things might be like if he is re-elected. Insecurity leads to desparation.

Matt...As another day passes and voices like yours come to the surface with demented right wing garbage spewing forth as truth, I am more and more determined to confront your ilk in the voting booth, the public forum, on the streets, in the alleyway or anywhere at all so that one more voice of tyrany can be exposed for the ignorance it represents. God damn you and all your right wing treasonist political leaders.

People like Matt cannot be educated, or spoken to rationally. He believes nonsense, and he's making shit up.

Sinclair can air anything it wants about Kerry, but that doesn't make it right. It's propaganda, pure and simple, and unless they gave Kerry supporters the same time to run a program of their own, it is flagrantly immoral.

He claims the democrats are causing all of the problems, which is also a flat lie. The republicans are already accusing them of "voter fraud" simply because they're afraid of losing the election fair and square.

Matt is an unwitting nazi, nothing more.

The First Amendment of the Constitutiono the U.S.
"It enforces the "separation of church and state. Some governmental activity related to religion has been declared constitutional by the Supreme Court."

From...
http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/first_amendment.html
Do a google search for more info...
Matt is the very type of person that I am scared to death of. The type that watches FOX BS and listens to the Bushit of the Puppet and his masters and calls it 'fact'.

I hope everyones passports are valid if the nutcase retakes 1600 Penn. Ave.- there may be a mad dash to the borders!!

"And then it get even creepier."

Nice Grammer.

Nice spelling... *rolls eyes*
one ought to do a spell check before slamming another one's 'grammer', don't you think?
the whole notion of hitler being 'left' was good for a chuckle... hitler was left like W. is a hippie. your neighbours to the north really hope you let the president who wins gets to be the president this time, you're making us nervous.

"It's snake oil, pure and simply. His slides of him seeking for WMD that he showed at a formal dinner were a terrible blotch on our national psyches. What in the world did he think we'd laugh at? It was pathetic and if I had anyone fighting in Iraq I would be furious. NOT FUNNY!"

________________________________________________________________
...

Laughing with the press, making games of no weapons.
He thinks the man with the camera crew is a spy.
Karl said be careful and go by the spiel that we planned ya'.

http://keithblevins.com/mp3s/DisgracingAmerica.mp3

Good for you NK! You did your homework on Jefferson and the Fundamentlist Christian canard about being a Christian nation. I've been looking for the name of the guy that made up all the phoney religious quotes by the Founding Fathers but can't find it. Too bad the republicans posting to this and other forums won't respond to reason, must be one of the genetic defects that makes them veer right.

Matt-
Hi you right wing nut job! I have a good one for you. This was our gospel today - Luke 18:10-14.
"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the tax collector, standing afar off would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you this, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

If you don't understand Biblese, the gist is that the Pharisee (holy man) thought he was pretty pious (holy) because he fasted and gave money to the church. The tax collector, (tax collectors were the most hated people of the time) knew he was a sinner and was humbled in front of God. God told the Pharisee that his self-righteousness would lead him to hell, while the tax collector will be exalted.

So the pious one, Bush, to whom God speaks, (but I call that schizophrenia)professes to be righteous. But according to Luke, we know where that's going to lead him. And the tax collector (Kerry is going to raise them according to you right-wingers) will be exalted.

If you guys want to play the religious card, we "liberals" would love to get in the game!!

You are a narrow and closed-minded idiot.

Vampires don't have reflections.

Vampires don't have reflections.

Ion,

Your post had me rolling! I suspect after the beating Matt got - he probably did not get to read your reply. As a liberal I try really hard to love all - but self righteous a**holes really make this so difficult. This nation if not allread is headed to full on-Facism. http://www.oldamericancentury.org/smell_the_fascism.pdf
Hardcore Bush supporters would have followed Hitler into the abyss. Taking the religion angle a just a little further. Though I will not quote verse - the bible does say something about - false prophets. How believers could be fooled. Like Jim Jones - Like George W Bush. People enthrawed in a cult either fail to see or give a pass to their human leader's fragrant violations of the very tenents of the belief system they profess. Jim Jones followers - saw no evil in Jim Jones personally sampling selected females of the group married or not. George W. Bush followers see no evil in George W. Bush attacking a nation that posed no threat to us. It blows my mind. But I have come to this catharsis - these people are in a cult state.
When you consider the incredibly long list of ignoble happenings that are part of this adminstration. They are many - but I have to say amoung the worst is the total failure of this adminstration to accept responsibility for ANYTHING. And for every thing - they get a pass.
Short list: lack if wmd,lack of security of Iraqi arms,lack of protection of Iraq Museum artifacts,total lack of plan to win peace,CIA agent outing, john ashcroft, flu scandal, Price of Loyalty - scandal, Against all Enemies - scandal, obstructing 911 commission, tag team-no oath testifying before the 911 commission, over time pay elimination, tax cuts for those that do not need it in time of war, prisoner torture - abuse, thousands of innocents killed in Iraq far more than 911 victims and they had NOTHING to do with it, laying waste to the environment and calling the initiatives "clear skies" and "healthy forest", supporting our troops by NOT providing proper equipment, all this and much more - and yet Bush gets a pass. The anti-christ is supposed to leave people in awe, I must admit the fact that Bush teflon is so incredibly resistant leaves me in awe.

This is how the reining George II administration rewards his big media friends at Sinclair Broadcast Group who preempt their networks with a "news" program about Kerry.

FOLSOM, Calif., Sept. 28 /PRNewswire/ -- Jadoo Power Systems, Inc (Jadoo),
a leading provider of portable power products, was awarded a contract to
develop power systems for the US Special Operations Command (SOCOM). The
program's goal is to reduce the weight of energy storage carried in the field
by the Special Forces.
Evaluation of Jadoo's SuREII power systems purchased earlier by SOCOM
produced positive results, leading to the current contract. "This award is
proof of our capability to provide power systems for portable and remote
applications that provide superior runtimes in small packages," said Larry
Bawden, President and CEO of Jadoo. "We are one of the first companies to
provide commercial fuel cell products and this contract demonstrates SOCOM's
confidence in Jadoo to offer power packaged for military applications."
Jadoo is currently selling commercial power products to surveillance and
law enforcement agencies as well as television stations and professional video
providers. This contract allows Jadoo to expand its current product lines to
address the power needs of the military "Special Forces" marketplace.
Jadoo's products provide extended runtime at a reduced weight. The power
systems are rapidly deployable, while offering reliable power and quiet
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To Matt

Hate to break this to you, but here in Tennessee, the reason there was gunshots to the Bush/Cheney Hq. There was a bank robbed a couple of feet away, it was a by product of the bank robbery. Funny how that wasnt mentioned in most newspapers.

WOW! I have a ton of Liberal BS to respond to.

First- Matt Deadhead? Is that the best you Liberal "geniuses" can come up with? I would have thought such brilliant minds as you people could do better than that. Come on now!

TWF- We ARE on the brink of a Civil War, courtesy of the Left, which has been eroding freedoms and civil discourse in this country since Kerry attacked this country as a young man. It is your side that has been putting out lies, like Dan Rather and his forged documents from an associate of his daughter. No connection between the Liberal Media and the Democratic Party there. Yeah, you are a real brilliant guy, just like one of the people in "1984" who love Big Brother.

And please, don't give me that spiel about Liberals not taking away people's freedom of religious expression. If you believe in Seperation of Church and State, and you'd sue someone for praying in public, you are no friend of religious freedom. And by the way, secular humanism, in places like Revolutionary France and the USSR and Pol Pot's Cambodia, butchered more innocent lives in a few years than a thousand years of Inquisitions. Medieval people, as benighted as they were, have a much better track record than your type. Furthermore, if you believe that people died in the Middle Ages because there was no Seperation of Church and State, rather than a general collapse of civilization and all its infrastructure from the Roman period, your knowledge of history is severely limited.

"Freedom is slavery." Your way of thinking is right out of "1984." It's funny how Orwell was such a good predictor of how you people would act, so many years after he was gone.

Gregg- "Kim Jong Bush"? I mean, I knew you Liberals were divorced from reality, but geez!! Unlike the lot of you, practicing good Orwellian doublethink, I can remember back as far as the eighties and Liberal Democrats supporting North Korea and only every other Communist cause, like Sandinista Nicaragua during that period. Also, you might be interested in knowing the fact that it is your Democrat friends who are supporting socialism, not only in their foreign policy, but also here at home. It is the Democratic Party that supports big government and unelected bureaucracies and lawyers that trample people's freedoms.

Blue Iris- Yeah, and were the Union thugs and rent-a-mobs in all the other cities really Republicans trying to make the Dems look bad? It is the Democrats who are vastly superior in the realm of dirty tricks.

Michael- you are the deluded fool who can't face the truth. Tell that drivel you posted to one of the Swiftvets for Truth or the Sinclair Network. And Michael Moore? Nobody has bothered him, even though he is a liar, a traitor and a clown. Kerry is the one who forbids dissent to his views.

Geoff- Transferrence is the thing of the Left. As the facts have shown- it is the Democrats who have attacked Republican offices, it is the Left that has silenced free speech. And yes, they cover these things by going on the attack and transferring their own guilt onto others. Geoff, people like you have turned your country into a socialist garbage hole. Go back there and leave my country alone.

More to Geoff- You are obviously someone who spends alot of time in an ivory tower contemplating your naval. I know that Saddam Hussein was a socialist comrade and you are rushing to defend him and pine for the days when he was filling mass graves with "reactionaries," but nobody who really knows him will miss him.

Hell- Actually, it is Secular Nations which have filled mass graves by the tens of millions. Revolutionary France, USSR, PRC, Kampuchea, North Korea, the list goes on. The best Republics of the modern era- England, the US, the Netherlands and Switzerland all were based on Calvinist (aka Puritan) Republican values. The secular types of the days of their foundation supported the absolutist monarchies of the time. Medieval Kings, in the times when the church was strong, were not absolutist, they had checks on them. But once the church declined in power, monarchies became more dictatorial and absolutist.

Thomas-Oy vey, wake up man! Yes, FDR died in 1945. But in 1947, who do you think had appointed EVERY SINGLE JUDGE that was sitting on the court at that time? FDR.

Seperation of Church and State was never a part of American Law before the Eversman v Board of Education case that year. A case that no Federal Court had the right to hear given that "Congress Shall make no law RESPECTING an Establishment of Religion." Thus, no Fed Court has the right to arbitrate any case dealing with religious establishment, unless it was a law written by Congress.

No, I don't believe in a one-party theocratic state. Your side wants the one party state. What I want is a common sense country, where people can say a prayer in public (which actually IS in the Constitution, unlike Seperation of Church and State) without some Bolshevik Kommisar like you barking at them.

Yes, Thomas, I call people like you traitors. You have supported every enemy of the United States since the Viet-Cong. You attempt to turn America's government into something much like what the Viet-Cong set up. It is you who are on the side of tyranny and the enemy of free speech and democracy. And if you start a civil war (which I do not want, but traitors like you seem bent on forcing on us) trust me, freedom loving people like myself will finish it, very quickly.

Oh, and by the way, don't believe your own disinformation about "loyalty oaths" to attend Bush rallies. I was at one here in Panama City, and there were many people with Kerry shirts on hanging around, as well as the head of the Bay County Democratic Party, who I know on sight. So, save the propaganda for someone who might believe it.

To the doublethinking trick ho' of the Left, NK (does that stand for North Korean?)-

Article 3 of the Northwest Ordinance, July 1787 (same month as the Constitution was written for those of you who attended Public School)-

"Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged."

Alexis de Toqueville-
"The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other."

Patrick Henry (who would fill Liberal Bolshevik Komissars with lead if were alive today)-

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here."

James Madison (nice try misquoting him Thomas)-

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions ... upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Daniel Webster, 1820-

"Let us not forget the religious character of our origin. Our fathers were brought hither by their high veneration for the Christian religion. ...They sought to incorporate its principles with the elements of their society, and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions, civil, political or literary."

You might also find the Supreme Court case of Holy Trinity v United States of 1892.

By the way, all your quotes where Jefferson refers to "priests" he is referring to Catholic priests, not to Christianity as a whole.

Secondly, all your arguments are based on quotes by Jefferson. Check it out genius, Thomas Jefferson had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with writing the Constitution. He was in France on a diplomatic mission in July of 1787 as our Constitution was being written. All of you guys' arguments are based on somebody who wasn't even in the country at the time.

Go back to North Korea, NK. Take your Bolshevism with you. Let us real Americans who have common sense left live in peace, without you barking at us.

Rougy- Oh, I see, it's Fascist not to agree with you and your Party Line. You are the Fascist. Kerry's representative said and I quote (as I watched him say it) "they better hope we don't win." John Kerry is a liar who betrayed American GIs in Vietnam to help North Vietnam win. And he is acting like he's a member of the North Vietnamese politburo to anyone who disagrees with him.

And btw, I'll set my knowledge against your pitiful self any day, fully confident I'll come out FAR ahead.

Kim- Even if it was true about the bank robbery, what about the six other places where Democrats attacked Republican offices? No, there is an undeniable pattern here.

Lori- If you are an example of a "broad-minded" "genius", well idiocy is a big improvement on it!!!!

I suggest you keep on reading the Bible. You might learn something, and actually know something.

Richard-

You on the Left are the America-hating treason spewers. It is you who want to remodel this nation after France and Germany and Ba'athist Iraq. I am a Christian and do not believe in violence, but I will defend myself and my country against a rat bastard traitor like you any time, any place. However, I'd much rather you just moved to the socialist country of your choice and we live in peace and you send me a postcard from Hanoi, Pyongyang, Paris or Havana. How 'bout it?

Jason Thomas- It would take more than a punk like you or an airhead like Lori's got to give me a beating.

KSec- Why are you lying? As I said, I was at a Bush rally in Panama City, Florida and there were all kinds of your Democrat comrades there. There was even a ridiculous counter-demonstration across the street. Well, thousands attended the rally. A couple dozen showed for the traitor Kerry. As I told someone else, save the propaganda for someone who doesn't know better.

Well, Liberal sillies, I guess I have had enough of refuting your diatribes for one night. Sorry for those of you I didn't respond to personally, don't feel bad. You guys, try to learn the facts before you make scurrilous charges. And please, stop taking yourselves so seriously! Geez. I know you think you're brilliant geniuses and all, but it really wears. See y'all tomorrow!! Can't wait to read what you got for me then!! I can already feel the love!!

A. Matthew Dedinas
3rd Infantry Division (1996-1999)

Best you got wing-nut? Call me a punk and Lori an airhead because you are so cocksure you are right and we are wrong? Did I strike a nerve fascist? That is exactly what I meant by self-righteous a**hole. You attack with name calling (typical ditto-head) - but choose to ignore the content. Everything I listed that W and company have done are proveable FACTS - then of course facts mean nothing to the lemings that live in the "faith-based" world now does it? Defend if you will - why is taking away a workingman's overtime pay a GOOD thing? Why is sending our soldiers into battle ill-equipped a GOOD thing?
And Don't give me the bullshit about JK vote for the 89 Billion - Bush got the funding - but this was not a priority for him. Fascist "when government and business" run the country and only do what is best for BIDNESS. Yes, as a matter of fact your ass has been handed to you. Could it be because - maybe you are wrong?
- jason

The only fraud and suppression is by Republicans.
WHO, pray tell, were those tie-and-jacketed punks banging on the Miami-Dade county office doors in 2000, trying (successfully) to stop the LEGALLY-MANDATED re-count? Yeah, that's right: bused-in punks from D.C.

Jason- By your sniveling, it seems that I struck a nerve with you. You have offered nothing to this discussion but simpering, that is why I referred to you as a punk. Sorry if I hurt your widdle feewings. Don't cry.

My ass is being handed to me? Really? There are twenty of you Liberal jackals barking at me, yet I've managed to refute what you all have to say. Come on now, I thought you Liberal "geniuses" were smart! You should be able to handle me all by my lonesome!

I have refuted what you and your pals have said. It's too easy. You guys just regurgitate the same old Party Line talking points. Too easily refuted.

You see Jason, your side is the side demagogueing these issues. Bush is not taking people's overtime pay from them. I worked seven hours of overtime yesterday before coming home to refute your nonsense, and it is not being taken away. The notion that it is is demagoguery.

As for soldiers, I was an infantryman for eight years, so don't lecture me about that from your momma's computer. Five years in the Rapid Deployment Force and three years in the Guard. My old Guard unit just returned from Iraq.

You don't want me to bring up the $87 Billion that Kerry voted for before he voted against? Tough rocks! It is a fact, the president got the funding for the soldiers which Kerry was against. I served in the military mainly under Slick Willie, and that is when our units were demoralized and underfunded. If we hadn't gotten a Republican Congress, it would have been twice as bad. Kerry doesn't give a RIP ABOUT OUR SOLDIERS, AND THEY KNOW IT. That's the real proof of the pudding. The military and their families are voting overwhelmingly for Bush. No one wants to serve a traitor like Kerry.

And yes, Bush's policies are pro-business, among many other things. Just what do you think makes the economy run, there, High Speed? It is entrepreneurs taking a shot at running a small business and giving a good new product or service. It is not anemic bureaucrats that your side favors.

And as for Fascism, bear this in mind. Naziism is National SOCIALISM, the same socialism your side supports. Hitler was not a conservative, he was a radical. He made the same sort of appeal to malignant narcississm that the Democrats are today. If you want a look at a fascist go to any mirror in your house.

If you read your history, you will see that great Republics- like Rome and Athens were brought down not by the equivalent of Oil Company executives, but by demagoguery. By that I mean that someone comes along who uses class warfare arguments, how he cares about the poor and wants to help them against the rich. Usually such movements are led by people who don't care the least bit about the little guy, but are using them to gain power. If someone wants to seize power unscrupulously, he doesn't go join an oil company. He goes and becomes a politician who is a so-called "champion of the poor." That is the case with Caesar, Napoleon, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler. They didn't run any oil companies. They built bureaucracies that took people's freedoms, and lives, away.

db- I know you didn't even go there.

The only people disenfranchised in 2000 were my brothers serving overseas in the military by the punk lawyers of the Gore campaign.

And the people who were pounding on the doors were Republican observers and their supporters who were having the ballots taken out of their sight by the Democrats conducting their recount. How unfair of Republicans to not let Democrats cheat and tamper with ballots in peace!

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James Madison

"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the TOTAL SEPARATION OF THE CHURCH FROM THE STATE."--James Madison

"That Religion, or the Duty which we owe to our Creator, and the Manner of discharging it, can be directed only by Reason and Conviction, not by Force or Violence, and therefore all Men have an equal natural and unalienable Right to the free Exercise of Religion, according to the Dictates of Conscience, and that no particular religious Sect or Society ought to be favored or established by Law, in Preference to others." George Mason.
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" John Adams

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

From the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. "

"We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of DIVINE PROVIDENCE (emphasis mine), we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor. "

Oh no! The Declaration of Independence is Unconstitutional!! Look for the ACLU to sue to launch one of its frivolous lawsuits to force us to become British colonies again!

Also noted in a previous post, among many other things, is Article 3 of the Northwest Ordinance which stated that religion and morality would be forever encouraged (the nerve!). It was written the same month as the Constitution and enforced under the auspices thereof. Why would something so blatantly "Unconstitutional" be allowed to stand?

Jefferson and Madison attended church services every Sunday on the floor of Congress, along with nearly every other of the Founding Fathers. The first act of Congress was to publish Bibles for distribution to them who could not afford them.

It is quite obvious that the ACLU and Southern Bolshevik Law Center would try to sue the pants off Jefferson and Madison if they lived today.

Yes, they did, unfortunately, use the same term "Seperation of Church and State" that Liberals use today. However, they meant two very different things. Jefferson and Madison would be right with Patrick Henry in fighting Liberals who seek to deny religious liberties in the name of "Seperation of Church and State."

Seperation of Church and State in its modern incarnation comes from Article 124 of the Soviet Constitution of 1936.

All this debate is academic, as whatever one man's opinion might have been, the fact is, nowhere in the US Constitution does it say "Seperation of Church and State." In plain English, it says nothing of the kind. Quite the opposite, in fact. What the Establishment Clause says is, the Federal Government is to stay out of the religious affairs of states. In other words, Liberals violate the very law they bludgeon people with.

Matt Dedinas
3rd Infantry Division (1996-1999)

Matt,

You are too much fun. Believe it or not I do appreciate the time you take to respond, I will try not call you vile names. It is too easy to do and just illicits the same from you. First, I do not give a shit if your were in the military or not. I am a vietnam vet - and I left a leg in the jungles. I was in this immoral and disasterous war for this country. Kerry went and served - decided that it was wrong and came back and did his level best so that our nation would end it's involvement. That is not a traitor that is a hero. McNamarra - a chief architect of this hellish war; himself has admited what a mistake it was. Kennedy was foolish to be so gunho for this war - it is not just repugs that start unecessary wars. As a veteran I find it amazing that vets like you have any respect for the draft dodgers in the Bush administration which is legend. To be against an immoral war that is killing innocent peole and your country men does not in no way makes you a traitor - to support the war and then do all you can so that you do not have to fight yourself is far more dispicable.
Which is EXACTLY what Bush, Chenny, DeLay and your other heros did.

Overtime? Bush signed a bill that will take away overtime from millions of people. Maybe it does not effect you, if it did maybe you would not be so callous. The point is WHY SHOULD ANYONE not get compensated for sacrificing family time to work more hours for the boss? That is indefensible, it is fact - just because you call it demogaugery does not make it so. I can provide links to reputable news agencies - quit disputing facts it just makes you look foolish- so stop it allready.

I never equated Nazism with Fascism. Anybody that does is simply ignorant. What Bush and company do have in common with the Nazis (other than Granpa Bush bidness with Hitler) is that
is their mastery of the use of propaganda to line up lemmings for their bankrupt cause. Fascism is represented by Mussolini, Penochet and a host of other right wing corperate whores like your boy shrub. Matt, look up the word before you make such ludicrous statements. Communism is a failed ideology - but so will capitalism if allowed to denegrate into Fascism.

I am liberal when it comes to personal freedoms, I believe that less government is better, that the government should not mortgage our future - control spending and basically stay the f**k out of our lives. But Bush is so extreme that I actually would vote for Geraldine Ferraro before I would cast a vote for him. Nobody can possibly f**k this nation up more than the occupant in the white house has done allready.

Business exist to make money. No doubt about it, but by it's very nature - to improve the bottom line a business can be very cold blooded and heartless towards their worker bees. Of course government should do what it can to foster business expansion - but not at the cost of peoples livelyhoods, peoples health and environment. There should be a balance - and the greed pendulum has swung too far. If you personally Matt are not rich - you will not like the result - when the USA becomes a charles-dickens nightmare - with a few (very few) rich elite and rest of us starving - dying serfs. This trend has started allready. Count your blessings if you have a job, for now...

Snap out of your cult mindset. Nothing is ever 100% black or 100% white. There are valid arguments on both sides - compared to the extremist right wing - I am liberal and I know MANY republicans that feel the same way I do.
Insulting people like you is pointless, I would just ask that you at least look at facts - and argue facts with facts, not Limbaugh blasts.

- jason

Jason, I appreciate your civility, and I will return the courtesy.

I am sorry for your leg, truly.

But the Vietnam War was just. The atrocity was in the manner in which it was fought- not to win. The cause itself- preventing Hanoi's Politburo from turning Vietnam into a gulag, was, in and of itself, a noble cause. South Vietnam was no picnic in 1965, but if it were around today, it would be like Taiwan or South Korea are- democratic and functioning. In the 1980s, before Vietnam called America and begged for aid, people were starving, like in Ethiopia. Vietnam, with its twin Deltas- the Red River and Mekong, should be exporting food. Even if Vietnam had only one of those rivers running through it, it should be enough to feed its people and export a heckuva lot to less fortunate countries. But the Communist system is so bad, it has ruined the country closest to the Garden of Eden in terms of food production capacity.

The Iraq War is also just. The enemy is made much bigger and badder in the press than they really are. Yes, they are a big pain, but we will beat them. The government we are bringing about is a vast improvement over the government of Saddam. I am sure you will not deny that. What people do not understand about Iraq is its importance in the Arab World. Iraq is the strongest Arab nation. If Iraq turns into a strong democracy, it strength and prestige among its fellow Arabs will entice others to follow suit. In defeating Saddam's Iraq, we defeated every hostile Arab power by substitution. Witness Libya. We made huge progress there. When I saw what Libya was giving up, it reminded me of the old cartoons of someone being told to surrender their weapons and they pull a veritable arsenal out of their pockets. For what Qaddafi gave up alone, the war in Iraq was worth it. But that is not all the benefits we will reap in having a successful democratic government in Iraq.

As for businesses being cold blooded, I never denied that many of them were and are. I just believe that unelected bureaucracies and activist courts are a much greater threat to the freedom of man than business. Your average "rich guy" is a small businessman making just over 200k a year, and while that seems like alot to you and me, he has sweated his behind off for every penny of it. What's more he has three or four employees like you and me and he looks out for their interest as well as his own. A small businessman has to. He relies on those employees, although he works harder than any of them, because it's his business. Helping people like that is the answer to your concern for the everyday person. These people start out as everyday commoners and through innovation and taking a gamble, start something. And it makes a little livlihood, not just for himself or herself, but for his or her employees as well. And this is much better, more helpful than a bureaucracy.

Bureaucracies, when first created, do seem like an answer to a prayer, as Lenin must have seemed to the Russians in 1917 or Hitler to the Germans in 1933. But pretty quickly, bureaucrats come to see the nation as existing for their benefit, rather than vice versa. It's just the nature of the beast. And I wish the Republicans had done a better job over the last ten years of getting rid of some of these.

As for having a job, the unemployment rate is 5.4% at this time, which the media, and the Democratic Party, portray as the nearest thing to the Depression since the Depression. In 1996, when we were living in streets of gold, with Clinton as president, the unemployment rate was 5.6% as he was re-elected. Do you not see how spin can deceive?

I am greatful to have a civil discussion with you, Jason. I take back calling you a punk. I was wrong and I apologize. I'm supposed to live in the Image of Christ. But I have a temper and fail at that sometimes. I can't wait until this election is over, nothing sets me off the way politics does.

Matt Dedinas (1996-1999)

Hey Matt,

Your response is thoughtful - and I even agree with some of what you say. I have phantom pain where my leg used to be - even now after so many years. It grieves me that young kids and even older guardsmen and women are experiencing this and even worse. No sir, war is hell. You go to war when you have to, both Vietnam and Iraq were war of choice. One started by a democrat, one started by a republican. I will even go as far as both presidents making a decision that they thought was correct. History has proven the Vietnam war a mistake - many former supporters and indeed prosecuters of this war and many veterans have come to understand that. That does not mean that our troops in Vietnam and even now in Iraq die in vain. A soldier serves his country - a warrier may die or pay a heavy price for love of country - but it is the leadership that is and should accept responsibility if the war is waged for nefarious reasons. We may just have to disagree, I fear Iraq will be viewed the same.

Dick Cheney in his debate with Edwards urged
viewers to a site "fact-check.com" - should have
said "fact-check.org". Non-partisan - just the facts. There you will find facts - not religious dogma but perhaps inconvenient facts. Demos get
no pass here either. The fact is that the stated
unemployment rate is in fact not correct. The Bush
administration changed the way these figures are arrived at - it does not count people who have dropped off the unemployment roles due to benefit
lapse - and it counts as "jobs" of people like me who used to make 96K a year - writing computer code - and now having to make 45K a year with no benefits. I had to sell my home, and now renting - and even thankful that I even found a job. Unless you are in a trade, most every job can be outsourced (I do blame Clinton for starting this trend by the way). The economy is not as bad as the demos would like you to believe but is not even remotely rosy either.

We have to agree to disagree, I will cancel out your vote - and I hope Bush loses. But win or lose - whoever wins needs to win by an undisputable margin else our country is in for an extremely tumultous time.

I used to be a born again Christian. I have back slid as the saying goes. So I do understand
what living in grace is all about. I try hard to be more balanced, faith is a good thing. Faith in the blood of Jesus to wash away our sins - but I also am carefull to have faith in facts - I choose not to ignore facts. Opinions one can
ignore - but facts ignored can get you killed.
False prophets are rampant - the bible only gives you one way of identifying them - through their actions. What would Jesus do? In this day and age this should be applied liberally. Sorry I could
not resist.

peace,

jason

More important to me than what you may see politically, is what you see in Christ. If you have backslid, you need to pick yourself up again and get right. I know how hard it is. I kept trying and failing to get it right myself, several times. And yes, I still have alot of work to do on myself. But it all finally fell together in Montgomery when I stood with Judge Roy Moore in August, 2003. It's just that every day was one of intense prayer and fellowship with other Christians. Perhaps you might have an opportunity to do something similar. I mean a retreat or something of the kind. I'll put you in prayer. Pray for God to help you find your way back. He will help.

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applause to al comments wrote...

but i have a question for you all:

is democracy best served by strict seperation w/ seperatin of church and state

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